Social Media Guidelines for Mine Exploring?

tdobson

tdobson

Member
I'm hoping to tap into the collective wisdom of this community on a topic that I think affects many of us: social media guidelines for mine exploring.

This isn't necessarily for me personally, but I often explore with people who are relatively new to the scene, and I want to help them navigate this area responsibly.

The challenge I'm grappling with is: How do we figure out the appropriate level of discretion for different venues?

Here's what makes this complex:

The Information Paradox
  • Buddle Pit itself contains probably the most comprehensive list of mine locations and names ever compiled
  • Yet clearly, just because something is named here doesn't mean it's appropriate to name it on Instagram or Facebook
  • Some regions (like the Southwest) seem to have strong "no naming" cultures
  • North and Mid Wales... seem to have large minorities who name locations.
  • Others (like Peak District lead mines) appear more open about naming
  • You might find YouTube videos or other forum posts openly sharing locations, but that doesn't necessarily make it okay for you to do the same
  • Some venues are clearly "do not post photos, videos, names, locations, even to close friends"

The Reality Check
It's easy to say "keep everything private and off social media entirely," but that doesn't reflect how most of us actually discovered these places.
Many found locations through forum posts, club contacts, or people sharing information responsibly.
We need a realistic approach that balances access preservation with the reality of how information spreads.


What I'm Looking For:
I'd love to hear people's thoughts on practical guidelines for:
  • When is it appropriate to name a venue vs. describe it vaguely?
  • How can we assess the sensitivity level of different locations?
  • Are there reliable indicators (caving councils, established listings, etc.) that suggest a place is okay to discuss more openly?
  • What about regional differences - how do we respect local customs? (can anyone explain different cultures in different areas)
  • Should technical difficulty (SRT vs. walk-in) affect how we share information?
  • What about access-controlled venues where a club or group controls the entrance?

The Goal:
I'm hoping we can develop some sensible rules of thumb that help newer explorers make good decisions without being overly restrictive. Something that acknowledges this is a nuanced area while giving practical guidance.

This is a complex topic where people have strong and sometimes differing views.

I'd like to encourage everyone to approach the conversation respectfully, avoid naming and shaming people or groups, and to focus constructively on helping develop the best practice for the next generation of explorers.

I'm genuinely curious to learn from your experiences and perspectives rather than advocating for any particular approach - I'm certainly not sure I know the answer.

What works in your region? What guidelines do you follow or recommend? How do you help newcomers navigate these waters?

P.s. If anyone is eager to try and judge me hardly, and discover if I'm a TikTokNutcase, or YouTuWanker or whatever - it isn't nice to be judged, but feel free to check out my socials. @tim.dobson.uk / @tdobson2 / tdobson - I'm not entirely sure I've got everything ever right, but I'm hardly prolific and 100% not asking about this to game any system.
 
It is a very sensitive subject isn’t it. I hate gatekeeping but there’s a sense of requirement for it in general, obviously wouldn’t want to post a W3W for the entrance to a dangerous system that requires proficient SRT from the get go, but everyone has to start somewhere so it’s hard to strike a balance. Most I’ve talked to about Furness/lakes stuff have been cautious, and rightly so, but discussion always helps. On some vids on YouTube of our trips the creator changed the titles and description to make them generic, doesn’t stop posters of comments blurting it out though!
 
I was chatting about this with a thoughtful and well known member of this forum, and they pointed out that there may be a sliding scale:

eg something like:
Open Access Mineeg Merlin Mine, Nickergrove Mine, Stoney Middleton, Post photos, Video, Name it, whatever.
Don't be a dick though - leave artifacts please.
Something which is potentially a bit more sensitivepossibly something in Coppermines Valley in the Lakes or a Walk in waterwheel in mid wales. Often very easily accessible (walk in) but with conservation risks(artifacts), or dangers to poorly equipped visitors (drops, rockfalls)Maybe describe but don't name
??????
Something that if the land controller found out you were there, would result in immediate negative actioneg stuff in SW, places looked after by government quangosDon't show anyone at all(?)
 
For me, some of the factors are:
- Is it freely accessible, well known and 'safe', e.g. Rhosydd Quarry, Nenthead. Then it might as well have full disclosure.
- If access is not permitted, but folk do go in anyway, then better not to name it. E.g. Maenofferen
- If there are good artefacts inside and it's not well known, then definitely keep the location secret. E.g. (this waterwheel is well known but there are others)
- What are the consequences to people getting in - will the landowner block the entrances (east midlands ironstone). Will artefacts get trashed?

I would err on the side of secrecy - if folk are prepared to do enough investigation themselves (rather than get it on a plate), then perhaps they deserve the rewards.

Chris.
 
Back in the good old days of AditNow... We had five levels of security.

Public - viewable to anyone
Level 1 - you'd need to be a Registered User to view
Level 2 - This level was given to people who posted useful content and had been to places we'd prefer to be kept under the radar, so we bumped them up and asked them nicely to post at that level. The pay-off for them was the ability to view a load more images / discussions / documents at that level. It ended up quite a big user base, but
Level 3 - This level was for people we knew personally and trusted not to leak things. Again, there was a payoff in better access to material but generally it was a way of keeping discussion and reports out of the public eye and not publicising particularly sensitive sites and also 'works in progress' where someone was pushing new ground and didn't want all and sundry gatecrashing.
Level 4 - Never existed, but as the level below gained members, that was an argument to create this to keep the numbers down.
Admin - Existed as a user level with its own discussions and images. Rarely used in comparison to everything else.

The joy of this was that it was possible to, eg. have Cwmorthin as a mine with data, descriptions, albums and discussions, but with the ability to hide more sensitive or rarely-seen bits out of harms's reach.

For much of the site's existence, we managed to keep things under control. But: social media wasn't what it is now.

The problem now is that the genie is well and truly out of the bottle.

NWCRO have rescued 'influencers' from Croesor, who've used their footage of being rescued on their social media, presumably driving engagement. This feeds itself, with more and more people venturing underground just so they can film themselves and get more 'likes' on social media.

I really don't understand the concept of farming 'likes' but it's a very real thing.

And 'likes' are more plentiful if you show people things they haven't seen or which are, in effect, more dangerous.

The issue is fundamentally that these people are't going underground to see what was there, to add to the knowledge or record the past: they're going to go somewhere once, gurn into the camera and post it up on social media with a ladleful of hyperbole.

They're not going to listen when someone suggests that if they do publicise sites what they shouldn't be in, access might be lost - because they'll just find somewhere else.

What happens when a wannabe 'influencer' ends up badly injured or worse? Ten years ago I might have said that would have seen outrage and sites being blocked off. These days, I'm not so sure that the news cycle is long enough to cause that effect - look at the two deaths in the pools off the Watkin Path in June: now forgotten.

Okay, there's a very real risk that insurance companies might force the issue, but that might or might not happen.

So, in short, pretty much everything is blown wide open already. There's no way of curing it.

*****

In answer to your questions:

When is it appropriate to name a venue vs. describe it vaguely

- in the absence of any public access agreement, arguably not on social media. In reality, use common sense, but if you're posting pictures of a big red crane, everyone knows you've gone somewhere that the owners don't like you going.

How can we assess the sensitivity level of different locations?

- ask! But in reality don't post anything too publicly about places that are still being worked or somewhere that the owner has, in the past, gone to efforts to stop people from getting into. Similarly, if the site is likely to be dangerous to novices, it's probably not a good idea to attract people to their potential doom.

Are there reliable indicators (caving councils, established listings, etc.) that suggest a place is okay to discuss more openly?

- probably

What about regional differences - how do we respect local customs? (can anyone explain different cultures in different areas)

- not something I've got enough knowledge of
Should technical difficulty (SRT vs. walk-in) affect how we share information?

- yes. Because people who don't know what they're doing when they try SRT need to be rescued.

What about access-controlled venues where a club or group controls the entrance?

- respect the access control and do your best not to attract people who want to break in and put their exploits on social media

*****

The Information Paradox

Buddle Pit itself contains probably the most comprehensive list of mine locations and names ever compiled

- now, yes, in the past, probably not

Yet clearly, just because something is named here doesn't mean it's appropriate to name it on Instagram or Facebook

- correct

Some regions (like the Southwest) seem to have strong "no naming" cultures

- quite likely. They're sensible down there, it would seem

North and Mid Wales... seem to have large minorities who name locations.

- yes. The area attracts a lot of people who want to record themselves interacting with the landscape to farm 'likes. Sometimes they come to harm, eg the drownings in June.

Others (like Peak District lead mines) appear more open about naming

- possibly, but I suspect there's a lot up there that doesn't see light of day

You might find YouTube videos or other forum posts openly sharing locations, but that doesn't necessarily make it okay for you to do the same

- I wouldn't like to judge, but in the past I spent a good while trying to keep some locations under the radar, mostly so as not to knacker access or prevent them from being trashed

Some venues are clearly "do not post photos, videos, names, locations, even to close friends

- Yes. But that doesn't stop anyone if they think they'll get 'likes'.
 
See my post in the link, a new thread so as not to derail this one!

Godstone Quarry - dramatic account of a party lost and contemplating eating their dogs.

While reflecting on the recent topic on limiting visibility of mine sites taking account of social media challenges, I thought it would be interesting to post up the following which is the closest you would get to "social media" in the 1880s, viz. the local press. This is a bold attempt at a...
buddlepit.co.uk buddlepit.co.uk
 
As BuddlePit's database and mines forum is fully accessible over the internet (and I think they should be so), there is no place for obfuscation in the database, and if users want to couch forum discussions in vague terms they must make sure there are no connections to the database, which weakens the whole premise of the site.

And if a serious discussion of a site needs to talk about its access, condition and risk for serious users, you need to accept that casual users are reading the same threads, and while they might be foolish, at least BP ensured they were well informed.
 
I want to thank everyone for the thoughtful and constructive comments. I was worried I might be pouring petrol on a bonfire, and it's warming to see that we've not seen that.

I came to mine-exploring mostly post-AN. Which is sad and frustrating, but doubtless not as sad or frustrating as those who knew AN of old. I note my snarfu in suggesting that Buddlepit is the best source of knowledge of all time. That's clearly wrong. My apologies.

I appreciated the description by @vanoord of AN's level system - that wasn't something I was aware of.

I agree with @vicarage - and would like to explicitly agree that I'm talking more about posts on "traditional social media" (eg Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Youtube, WhateverIsNextButNoBetterGram) rather than posts on Buddlepit.

I'm in support of supporting organisations who control access controlled mines - eg as per @vanoord "- respect the access control and do your best not to attract people who want to break in and put their exploits on social media"

I'll nod along with everyone who says "better to be safe than sorry".

I like @ChrisJC 's rules of thumb
- Is it freely accessible, well known and 'safe', e.g. Rhosydd Quarry, Nenthead. Then it might as well have full disclosure.
- If access is not permitted, but folk do go in anyway, then better not to name it. E.g. Maenofferen
- If there are good artefacts inside and it's not well known, then definitely keep the location secret. E.g. (this waterwheel is well known but there are others)
- What are the consequences to people getting in - will the landowner block the entrances (east midlands ironstone). Will artefacts get trashed?
Click to expand...

I think I'd also add
- How objectively dangerous it is (eg if the floor or roof likely to collapse)
- Whether pitches will safeguard the bits that need safeguarding - though I'm not entirely sure if this does make any difference. Eg (I know it's a cave) but Garlands Pot in the Peak District, or the CRTT - both include SRT, yet poorly equipped parties regularly come unstuck.

I would err on the side of secrecy - if folk are prepared to do enough investigation themselves (rather than get it on a plate), then perhaps they deserve the rewards.
Click to expand...

And I think the thing about "make people put the effort in and get the reward, and filter out the lowest common effort people" is exactly on point.

And I guess since the internet contains lots of details of places (Buddlepit for example, but not just Buddlepit) then not naming sites generally creates a few steps of work for people to do their investigations?
 
Followup question, in same [ho ho ho ho] vein.

Someone whom you've never met, and have no real online contact with either, who you believe has BCA insurance, asks you:

> Hey, just wondering if you could help me with something. I started caving on 2022, I have been to a few caves and loads of mines but I always struggle to find surveys/maps/locations. Do you know if there's an online log of them or a book of them? I’m trying to plan a trip with my friends, we’re going to fron goch, Aberllefenni and Cwmystwyth but I can’t find surveys or entrance spots for any of them.

What would you do?
Let's say you're familiar but not local to all those sites.

[For reference, I am neither familiar nor local]
 
To take those three as examples:
They are all very well documented and extensively photographed. If said person couldn't find any information I'd question their interest in visiting such sites as they clearly haven't made any effort to do any background research first.
 
Jesus 🤯

I have a weekend away and ye talk about a tricky one !


My answer is why is the person there ?

For the sporting trip ?

For the history ?

For the views ?


You can usually tell .


If it’s for the views , I won’t be inviting them at my dig sites for when I break through .


When you lay digging or are drilling for hours & hours , you find something untouched “special”

Why should someone come along to earn money of views ? A pretend clarkson farms wana bee !

Does my box in !

This is why security levels matter & click bait people don’t get in there .
 
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tdobson said:
Followup question, in same [ho ho ho ho] vein.

Someone whom you've never met, and have no real online contact with either, who you believe has BCA insurance, asks you:

> Hey, just wondering if you could help me with something. I started caving on 2022, I have been to a few caves and loads of mines but I always struggle to find surveys/maps/locations. Do you know if there's an online log of them or a book of them? I’m trying to plan a trip with my friends, we’re going to fron goch, Aberllefenni and Cwmystwyth but I can’t find surveys or entrance spots for any of them.

What would you do?
Let's say you're familiar but not local to all those sites.

[For reference, I am neither familiar nor local]
Click to expand...
Yes .

For sites such as these the person I would tell to “google it for themselves “


If it wasn’t such a well known site , I would steer them to Buddle pit .

Post an intro .

Get a response .
 
tdobson said:
I want to thank everyone for the thoughtful and constructive comments. I was worried I might be pouring petrol on a bonfire, and it's warming to see that we've not seen that.

I came to mine-exploring mostly post-AN. Which is sad and frustrating, but doubtless not as sad or frustrating as those who knew AN of old. I note my snarfu in suggesting that Buddlepit is the best source of knowledge of all time. That's clearly wrong. My apologies.

I appreciated the description by @vanoord of AN's level system - that wasn't something I was aware of.

I agree with @vicarage - and would like to explicitly agree that I'm talking more about posts on "traditional social media" (eg Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Youtube, WhateverIsNextButNoBetterGram) rather than posts on Buddlepit.

I'm in support of supporting organisations who control access controlled mines - eg as per @vanoord "- respect the access control and do your best not to attract people who want to break in and put their exploits on social media"

I'll nod along with everyone who says "better to be safe than sorry".

I like @ChrisJC 's rules of thumb


I think I'd also add
- How objectively dangerous it is (eg if the floor or roof likely to collapse)
- Whether pitches will safeguard the bits that need safeguarding - though I'm not entirely sure if this does make any difference. Eg (I know it's a cave) but Garlands Pot in the Peak District, or the CRTT - both include SRT, yet poorly equipped parties regularly come unstuck.



And I think the thing about "make people put the effort in and get the reward, and filter out the lowest common effort people" is exactly on point.

And I guess since the internet contains lots of details of places (Buddlepit for example, but not just Buddlepit) then not naming sites generally creates a few steps of work for people to do their investigations?
Click to expand...
Yes people must do there own footwork in my
Opinion, read old trip reports .


Say if bob reads an old trip report of a rise existing in a level in 1975 in a mine , he goes there today and it isn’t there ? But collapse is ? He now has a place to investigate.

This is because he isn’t asking for everything on a
Plate .


We must not forget the old ways & give everything away .
 
ChrisJC said:
For me, some of the factors are:
- Is it freely accessible, well known and 'safe', e.g. Rhosydd Quarry, Nenthead. Then it might as well have full disclosure.
Click to expand...
If I may present a contrary argument, there are a couple of things in Rhosydd which would benefit from not being widely known about ;)
 
TomFerry said:
If it’s for the views , I won’t be inviting them at my dig sites for when I break through .


When you lay digging or are drilling for hours & hours , you find something untouched “special”

Why should someone come along to earn money of views ? A pretend clarkson farms wana bee !

Does my box in !

This is why security levels matter & click bait people don’t get in there .
Click to expand...

It would be fair to assume that if someone has a sensationalist YouTube channel that it would be best if they were left to work things out for themselves, yes...
 
In WCMS we have a policy of doing our best to give access to the sites where the owner wants controlled access. We have had well-known "explorers" politely ask for visits to take photos and have obliged. The photos will usually appear online somewhere with nicely worded thanks for those who helped and repeating that all others who want to visit need to do is ask. You might think this sounds like a workable system, however, not so long back, following such a visit and subsequent report, the very same explorer was back some time later, breaking into one of the other sites managed in a like manner. How do I know it was the same person? He chose to write his online name on the wall, perhaps not caring that we know the place intimately and any new scribblings are quite noticeable.

Regardless of this, we will not be put off trying to help anyone who asks for a visit. We will not be deterred by one or two people determined to spoil it for everyone else.
 
vanoord said:
If I may present a contrary argument, there are a couple of things in Rhosydd which would benefit from not being widely known about ;)
Click to expand...
True! Most folk just rush through Rhosydd anyway on their exit from Croesor, without even noticing the wonders that are just a short distance of the main route!

Chris.
 
ChrisJC said:
True! Most folk just rush through Rhosydd anyway on their exit from Croesor, without even noticing the wonders that are just a short distance of the main route!

Chris.
Click to expand...
Don’t blame them either dam slate quarry”s , hopefully some veins get found and they get re worked out .
 
Bit late to this one. The eternal question, eh? I do a fair bit of Urbex too and there are similar issues with above ground stuff.

Locally, the Derbyshire Caving Association has an excellent Cave Registry which includes a lot of info on the area's various mines. It gives access agreements/details (or otherwise) and map locations. So places like the aforementioned Nickergrove mine in Stoney is very much out there and open access. So no real issues with naming places like this and posting pics etc.

Then there are the well-known places that people regularly go to without access agreements in place. I think Maenofforen is in this category. It's already all over the net and if you don't name it and put pictures up, people know where it is anyhow.

Then there's the very sensitive places. Places that if named could result in them getting sealed up. That applies to all coal related mines under the watch of the Coal Authorities.

So I guess you could argue that there are three categories of place.

I therefore think you need to ask the question "What are consequences of putting a place out there?"

If they include one or more of the following:

(1) The place will get trashed
(2) The place will get sealed up and made inaccessible
(3) People will put themselves in danger with a real risk of serious injury and/or death

....then caution is the better part of valour. Either restrict info to a few pics or don't post at all.

I often see people post pics of places that are well-known that they don't name and when people mention the name they get all arsey. I see this as a bit silly really and a bit gate-keeper-ish. I mean, in most cases they have hardly done a lot of research to find the place.

And sometimes people post pics of places that should be kept off grid and not posted in the first place, but their reply will be "Well, I've not named it". Ultimately, in this day and age, once you have piqued someone's interest they can normally work out where a place is.

So for me, it's a commonsensical approach looking at different mines on an individual basis and proceeding accordingly
 
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I appreciate the thoughtful late reply @OutdoorMiner and would welcome any other late comers to this thread to share thoughts (in the same constructive mindset that the posts so far have all been).

I continue to find it top of mind, and I welcome the conversation, and helping users here develop what they might feel is "common sense".
 
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